Things have been far too busy recently for me to do any substantive posting. But I have noticed that our discussions of topics such as race and gender and interpretations of quantum mechanics are far too genteel and rational for my tastes. (Seriously, why is it that people just cannot resist the temptation to argue with people who say outrageous things, even if they know perfectly well that those people are absolutely immune to reason?)
So I’d like to broach a more controversial topic. I’m thinking of buying a new laptop. Tell me: Mac or PC? I’ve used both quite a bit, so I’m not a fundamentalist either way. The Macs are of course Linux FreeBSD-based, which is useful if you’re a scientist. And there’s the fight-the-evil-empire business. But one cannot deny that there is useful software that isn’t available for Macs. And the variety of laptop hardware is much more diverse in the PC world, including attractively thin ultralights. So — reasonable cost-benefit analyses on either side? Your thoughts are welcome.
And play nice.
you are wrong about which company is the evil empire…
apple is the wolf in sheeps clothing…they are about proprietary hardware and locking you into a certain path that insures their profit margin…despite his black jeans and no tie steve jobs is the unbelievably brilliant capitalist/businessman… (just as ipod/itunes are cool until you realize that you pay more for the same music and only have one place from which to buy it…)…
pick the pc…everything you need and more choices…
does apple “think different” because to me it sounds like all the apple people think the same…
I presume the Linux vs. BSD distinction is something that lies close to the expert’s heart, but wouldn’t affect my ability to use software I currently use on my Linux desktop?
Pretty much, yeah. OS X comes with an X-windows server. As Clifford mentioned, ‘fink’ is your friend for installing UNIX software. You can check the list of packages here to see if what you need is available.
The current rumors are that new Mac laptops should be out before the summer. If you can hold out ’till May, I’d wait and see what new stuff is available.
I owned Windows-Linux dual-boot laptops for my first three years of college. This September, I sucked it up and bought a 12″ Powerbook and I’ve never been happier. Here’s why:
–I find OSX to be far more intuitive and stable than Windows, as well as being able to interface with my work Linux boxes far better, without having to shut down and reboot. Plus, it’s just prettier.
–TeXShop is a fantastic gui for LaTeX. I don’t know how I lived without it.
–I get a fairly optimal (for my purposes) combination of lightweight, cpu power, and battery life.
–The hardware feels far more solid and long-lasting than either my Dell (VERY disappointing) or my ThinkPad (IBM).
–Stuff just works. I plug it in, it works. I download it, it works. This was not my experience with my previous machines, and WOW!
–Did I mention how pretty everything is? There is a far higher level of attention to design than my previous machines in hardware, software, everything. Things are where I feel they should be, lines and graphics are clean, and that little thing has made my computing experience far happier.
In the end, though, you have to evaluate what your needs are. Mine are for a laptop that is light, durable, and with long battery life (I routinely get 4.5-5 hours), interfaces well with my work machines, can do small home programming projects, and is large enough to serve as my primary machine (full-size keyboard a must). My powerbook is perfect for that. Your milage may vary.
(Also, if you want to get a mac, wait a bit and see how the powerpc->intel shift works out.)
I’ve had the occasional crash on my mac, but I’ve only had to reset my machine once since I bought it in 2002!
Wait until the Intel powerbooks are on more solid ground, and then jump in (I would say wait until late Spring after the first system has been hammered by users and the bugs corrected, my only crash was the first week I used the machine.)
Those of us with data to deal with (OK, um, more like simulations) are waiting for idl to be ported to native, but I think Mathematica will be running on Intel very very soon.
As for longevity, the Mac laptop I bought in 1999 is still going strong; after she and I parted, she went to a friend and they’re going to law school together. That computer has more degrees than you Sean! [four so far.] The machines, unless you get one of the bum models from the mid 1990s, just keep going and going and going.
If you get Mac, be prepared to encounter more problems giving talks (requiring special cables etc.)., not being able to use a large fraction of software that is widely available otherwise. Macs are good for either inexperienced users with limited choice of applications, or for unix gurus. I am one of those unix gurus (essentially a sysadmin for our research group), but prefer to use truly dedicated unix for unix applications, and windows for windows.
Most Mac people praising Unix angle of Mac do not ever use unix part of it – or even know how. At least that was my experience installing unix applications for Mac users. Just last week I was helping out a friend who always underscores how great unix part of Mac is – and it turns out he doesn’t even have root permission, or knows a password.
I am not sure why people complain about stability – Windows XP is as stable as anything else. However, if I have to sit through another presentaiton where Mac user is apologizing for the way powerpoint presentaiton is projected using a Mac, or spending the first 10 minutes of his talk trying to figure out why his Mac doesn’t project anything.
Bottom line – if you rely on unix applicaitons, I would look into unix machine, or dual unix/windows. But going with Mac, you will miss out on a lot of great applications that simply do not exist for Macs. If you are savvy enough to write all of the code for missing application yourself under unix – go for it! If you are absolutely sure you will not need anything except most standard applications, you can survive with a Mac. But if you get PC, you could greatly enhance your options and never have to apologize for incompatibility of “quicktime” embedded figures in MS-Word or powerpoint or any other annoyances that I get to hear so many times…
mbecker: — They are both evil empires…. 😉 But better the devil you know than the devil you don’t!
And yes, we do all think the same: “This computer is just so grrrreeeeeeeeat!!!” – every time you use it, for years after you bought it too!
Cheers,
-cvj
Sorry, not 2002, I guess it would be closer to 2004? I jumped into the OS X line about a year after they went live. The 15″ model, at least mine, has handled the knocks very well; I think Apple has been back on the good design track since the late 90s (probably with the Powerbook G3.)
Ponderer:- Those are mostly out of date myths. I run the colloquium here and see macs and pc come and try to talk to the projectors all the time…. I help the speakers conenct their equipment. There is never a problem with either. Power point looks lousy on macs because…powerpoint is lousy. Keynote is better (and can run all your old power point stuff on it and convert it).
Many of those people who talk about the Unix aspects of Macs do know what they are talking about. Several of us in this thread use the unix core a lot…… that was the real dealmaker for me…. being able to have the best of the pc world and the best of the unix world on one machine, and *in addition* have all the great mac stuff too. No other machine lets you seamlessly connect three formerly different worlds so easily. That remarkable flexibility beats any other feature for me.
-cvj
Perhaps this question was already addressed earlier and I missed it (my reading of the previous posts was a little quick and dirty) but if you got a PC would you be running windows at all or just Linux/BSD etc? I agree that Macs are really great, and now that OS is based on BSD, that is especially true, but I think some (some, not all) of the posts have been more of a Mac vs. Windows debate rather than a Mac vs. PC debate.
I have a PC and it certainly hasn’t seen windows in a very long time.
Most Mac people praising Unix angle of Mac do not ever use unix part of it – or even know how.
Well, I’ll see your anecdote with an anecdote. I use unix apps all the time on my Mac, as do several of my students. No trouble compiling or installing them. Far less hassle, in fact, than I had when I used Linux.
I am not sure why people complain about stability – Windows XP is as stable as anything else.
It’s certainly improved a lot. You can’t say the same for security, though.
However, if I have to sit through another presentaiton where Mac user is apologizing for the way powerpoint presentaiton is projected using a Mac, or spending the first 10 minutes of his talk trying to figure out why his Mac doesn’t project anything.
This hasn’t been my experience at all. Powerpoint and keynote work just fine, and I’ve seen far more flameouts on Windows — we had someone in last year whose talk crashed out because, it turned out, their relatively new laptop was so infested with malware that it would freeze up every 10-20 minutes.
But going with Mac, you will miss out on a lot of great applications that simply do not exist for Macs.
Again, I don’t see many examples of specific “great applications”, but even if there are dozens it’s not really relevant if Sean’s never going to use them. Should he care if the best Pork Futures Analysis package is only available for Windows?
Travis: Imagine…. you can get the best of all three (Mac Windowsy-things, Unix)…simultaneously. That’s what a Mac offers. Sweet.
Ok. I am really going to shut up now. Really. Since 2003 I’ve been a bit of a born-again Christian on this issue. Sorry 😉
-cvj
Clifford: I understand and appreciate that. I guess I did not want to weigh in on the actual argument of PC vs. Mac, but more point out that PC’s don’t have to be equated with windows.
Just last week I was helping out a friend who always underscores how great unix part of Mac is – and it turns out he doesn’t even have root permission, or knows a password.
That because you don’t want root permissions. Unless you absolutely need to, it’s a good idea to not even enable the root account. You can do pretty much anything you need with sudo. You set a password when you log in and you have to enter it whenever you update system software, so I find it hard to believe that your friend didn’t know one.
As for cables, all the Mac laptops come with adaptors that give a VGA out, exactly the same as the PC Laptops. Judging by the experience of people giving talks here, the PC people generally seem to have the most trouble figuring out how to get things to display on the external monitor. I’ve never seen cables be an issue on either platform.
Now, if you’ve just brought the file along and are trying to present it on someone else’s computer, that’s just stupid.
Weird — this thread isn’t showing up in my RSS feed. I wonder why….
It’s simply not true that it’s hard to give talks on a Mac; I do it fairly often. I also have to agree that TeXShop is fantastic. Easily beats anything else I’ve ever tried.
I don’t buy the “Most Mac people praising Unix angle of Mac do not ever use unix part of it – or even know how.” I was a Linux user for years before I ever got a Mac. I use all sorts of Unix apps on the Mac, including a lot of physics software (HEP simulation packages). Almost everything works completely smoothly. Occasionally I have to make minor changes to a Makefile (but that happens in Linux too with about the same frequency).
The virus/spyware problem is the greatest problem with PC’s today. I manage my own Windows and Linux boxes as well as my family’s Windows PCs. I have never gotten infected, but my daughters do get viruses periodically. I have been able to clean up most of them with regular antivirus scans. I had a friend get a real nasty spyware infection, and it took me about 5 hours to clean up the mess. While I see that a real Mac virus has been seen in the wold lately, it clearly is much worse in Windows.
I do not think inherent stability of Windows XP when not infected is any worse than a Mac. I have had very few blue screens with XP. They are far rarer than they were in Windows 98.
The upfront cost of a Mac is the biggest issue that I see. I tend to buy one notch up from the bottom price range. My last laptop was $800 with 512 MB and a big widescreen display. It is heavy, but I can use teh exercise.
The software that I miss from Windows the most when I am in Linux is iTunes and Picasa. Obviously iTunes is available for a Mac. I haven’t played with iPhoto, so I have no idea if I would like it as much as Picasa.
I liust after the MacBook Pro but is is 2.2x more expensive than the last two laptops I have bought.
Very useful so far, thanks. It still seems to be a close call to me, given that there would be some transition cost if I were to switch from my present Windows system.
Is there some emulator for the Mac that just runs any Windows software I like?
And, D. Rad, I have precisely as many degrees as your computer (B.A., B.S., A.M., Ph.D.). But probably not as much memory, and I guarantee that I crash more often.
My mac increases my productivity so much that I can spend all my time in blog threads advocating for Apple. Astonishing.
I call BS on more efficient use of space. More powerful, yes, more efficient, no. It’s fairly well known that you’re talking about a min of 1GB ram and 1GB swap file, else the vaunted stability advantage is lost. A well-maintained XP system can last effectively with only 200 MB of swap, crunching lots of data in programs in cygwin shell, though generally one will see the same arg for 1GB of each in both Linux systems and XP systems, but 200 MB of swap will simply crash OS X, on all systems capable of running it (google this, it’s well known behavior). For Vista, the updated MS OS to be released this year, it’s a safe bet you want at least that. If you’ve got a big enough hard drive and enough RAM, it generally doesn’t matter, so this is not a good way of comparing the possibilities.
fink has exactly the same problem as cygwin — if you need a version newer than the one currently available, you’re stuck. And OS X is based on NeXtStep’s redo of BSD, so it bears a relationship to Sys V (what most people are referring to commercially distributed variants of Unix) more like that of Linux and Unix. Again, this is not a good way of comparing XP and OS X.
What I recommend is to see what programs you use regularly, what sort of tools are available/you would like available (just in case) for your work.
Decide on what hardware is necessary and what would merely be nice to have. Think about which accessories you’d like (carrying case, extra power cord, lock, warranty (I consider accidental damage a must, but I’m rough on my stuff), etc). Are you required to keep grades/other official data in a program only available for one platform? These sorts of considerations alone will seriously cut down on the work involved in picking something you’ll be happy with, and they should always be the first thing someone replies with when a person asks, “What should I get?”
I’ll run down a few of the ups and downs, for everyone involved. This list is far from exhaustive.
A few ups:
*Linux — easiest integration with a true Unix system (mainframe, cluster, etc). Best community support for an OS. Native X support is really handy, and if your hardware is common, the drivers will be there and work as advertised. This is my OS of choice, but not what I do most of my work in, for reasons to be discussed below. Has ipod compatible players.
*Windows — range of hardware and software available. Office (just because you’re using OpenOffice or this or that doesn’t mean that your collaborator is, and you cannott mix and match, Office will not play with non-Office). If you need serious horsepower today, you want Wintel. If you want support from the company who built the laptop, it’s Windows or OS X. Has itunes. Common file format support (again, people rarely discuss collaboration when picking the hardware that will be running their software, and that’s a shame. If you need MS file formats to exchange files with others, Windows is a better choice.). XP doesn’t have a nervous breakdown if you remove something before unmounting it, whereas the other two very easily could.
*OS X — it’s also a variant of Unix and is widely considered to be the best UI short of what is claimed by BeOS zealots (we’ll have to see what KDE 4 and Win Vista add in). Has itunes. Once native pdf format was an advantage, but PrimoPDF and the other windows programs have removed this difference. Things “just work” most of the time. Best handling of going to sleep on one network and waking up on another, including wireless.
A few downs:
*Linux — posting to a board for support for every damn little things, and hunting for that one particular device driver. Wireless hell if you pick a laptop with the wrong chipset. It’s very easy to get confused as to what to change where because Unix is arcane. And to top it all off, device driver hell and support forums where people are sick of being excoriated for the billionth time that this or that thing doesn’t work or isn’t supported under Linux by the company that makes it.
*Windows — security in default settings (XP is no elss secure than the other two, if you’ve spent the time to fix the truly bad default settings, but few do this because of the time it takes). Many people hate on the GUI relative to OS X. Weird default settings can drive you insane if you don’t go into the deal knowing that you are responsible for putting a computer into the order you like, because MS and 3rd-party developers cannot know everyone’s needs and this cannot customize it for you.
*OS X — smaller range of programs, dark incantations prompted by how badly the Mac version of Office can behave, having to learn a new environment can slow down productivity as easily as it can increase productivity (not an issue if you’re used to it already, but I’m thinking in general). Brushed metal everything. Nobody told you you’d need a ginormous swap file or double the default RAM installed. Do NOT expect files to move seamlessly between OS X and non-OS X. Seriously, don’t, it’s not Sys V. OS X will trash a flash drive if you accidentally remove it before unmounting.
get a pc and put linux on it 😉
But seriously there is no reason not to get a mac, unless you plan on playing games on it.
Sean (#42),
Yes there is: it is called “Virtual PC for Mac”. I have no experience usng it, but you supposedly can use it run any windows based application on a Mac.
It’s fairly well known that you’re talking about a min of 1GB ram and 1GB swap file, else the vaunted stability advantage is lost.
So, I’m just imagining that this computer only has 512MB in it?’
(This is fun. It brings back memories of csma….)
Re: moving Unix programs to OS X. Nope, you cannot guarantee that it will be easy. Porting code may or may not be, it depends. It could be as simple as a different gcc version (you pretty much can’t ever use binaries compiled with gcc 4.+ with something compiled with earlier versions, because you can’t guarantee that the compiler changes didn’t introduce an incompatability, something apparently well known in the Linux world). Whether you can adapt or get along or find something even better than what you were previously using, that’s a different issue.
Re: presenataions, both OS X and Windows can have problems with projectors, but that’s may or may not be a good way to judge, as it could be that the projector manufacturer cut corners on firmware or something else, so that problems crop up in the interfacing, not the opearting system.
Re: using Unix underpinnings. Apple explicitly set out to make it so that you never ever had to deal with a command line if you didn’t want to. That is irrelevant to how good the rendition of Unix is. I think that for the most part Apple’s version of X is good enough, though it occassionally didn’t act quite the way I expected when I used to work on a TiBook my boss had given me.
Re: both. Slot-loading DVD drives are evil. Period. They break faster. Either system can be rock-solid stable, either can be crap — by the time a year has elapsed, either OS needs maintenance. If you aren’t maintaining or getting someone to do the maintenance, you’re hosed, and it’s your fault, not Apple’s of MS’s. Within the first year, I’d say that OS X gives the better experience short of gaming needs.
There’s really nothing better than a ThinkPad running Linux. They’re very well built, and almost every meaningful type of software which exists for Windows or Mac exists for Linux. In fact, I find myself running ports and clones of Linux or crossplatform software (GIMP, Firefox, bittorrent, ghostview, emacs, cygwin, etc) on the Windows machine that I am forced to use at work.
Also, several people I know who own Toshiba laptops have had no end of hardware issues, and have had some trouble getting these issues resolved by the manufacturer in a timely manner.
@Aaron B:
I had never heard of this until the day I got a heated ranting at from the postdoc charged with maintaining one of our servers. If you don’t have enough ram, the system pages a lot, making it way slower. Mainly I was thinking about the facts that memory has become cheap enough that there’s no excuse short of losing your grant/stipend for not having it because it will improve the computing experience that much. Also, I was thinking heavily of the swap file size and emphasized because of how critical that issue is.